'I grew up in the Veluwe area where no one around me was less educated. When I moved to the Randstad conurbation, I noticed an elitist culture surrounding the law. I ended up working as a lawyer in Amsterdam for 10 years. I dealt with cases about keeping essential services like electricity accessible. A turning point came when I saw how European legislation for the public interest was being undermined and circumvented to preserve a small group's established positions. I did not feel comfortable with that, partly because of my background. In my social world in the Veluwe, the feeling was that the law was not there for everyone. The feeling was “the authorities are not there for you”. You were on your own. I then started studying psychology to better understand the law's dynamics.'

What did you take away from that?

In the Veluwe region, I felt what I later learned in my psychology studies and doctoral research. We used to live in tribes, and you learned to distrust other groups. Rules were made within your own group to protect it from the danger of competing groups. To accept the rule of law, you have to feel that you belong to the group of the rule of law. I also saw this in my empirical doctoral research at court sessions, where essential outcomes were at stake. People's trust in judges was influenced by how fairly and justly they felt they were treated during the hearing. People learn from that experience whether they are seen as a group member. The social distance that citizens feel toward judges was also found to be high, both  inside and outside the courtroom. This is because people end up in a world they do not know, and because they see judges as people from a different social group. Then, it matters even more whether they feel they are being treated fairly. Litigants form a judgment on this treatment. This happens very quickly and especially at the start of their hearing. It is worth  for lawyers to take this into account because litigant's fairness impressions have real consequences on their trust.'

Is the distance between ‘the citizen’ and the law really that great?

'There are considerable challenges in this field. The Rule of Law Committee speaks of serious shortcomings in the legal aid system. And the number of social lawyers is declining sharply. The fact that this chair was already established by the Legal Aid Council and the University of Amsterdam fits with the Rule of Law Commission's stating that a scientific basis is crucial for substantiating choices regarding access to the law.’

How can you bring about change in this chair?

'Of course, I will make it more visible to students what it means to act as an attorney for individuals at crucial moments in their lives. I will also provide scientific insights into what works to strengthen access to the law and how to implement this in practice. There is goodwill in this research and policy field, but there are also many questions. For example, we do not know exactly when people are able to handle their own legal problems. We also do not know how well current legal assistance and procedures align with people and modern society. I want to provide useful and more precise answers to these questions. I use an empirical approach in my research, whereby I also look at things from the position of those seeking justice. I try to understand the behaviour of those seeking justice and of lawyers.'

Does your background help you in this?

'My life experience helps me predict how policy on access to the law will work out in practice. I have examined the law from the inside and the outside. My psychological research experience in legal practice will also help with this task. My previous research about what victims consider important in repairing harm for example, remains important in the affairs surrounding the benefits scandal and the earthquakes in Groningen. As former legal practitioner, I can translate from and to legal practice. Besides that, I'm also keen to collaborate within and outside the faculty.’

Is it a problem that lawyers do not adequately reflect everyone in society? 

‘There are now many higher educated citizens, and we have started to live in a more segregated world. Lawyers are socialised in a certain way, for example, by thinking from the perspective of the internal law system. That is why it is good that UvA law students also learn to think about their role in the rule of law and that they learn about mechanisms on how the law plays out in the real world.’

What do you want to pass on to students?

‘I want to teach them about the citizen's perspective and how they can make a big difference simply by allowing people seeking justice to feel part of the constitutional state in their interactions. You don't have to abandon your role as a professional lawyer to do this. Students often feel they are small cogs in a big machine once they start working. I want to offer students tools to help them contribute to a just society as professional lawyers. This is in line with the educational vision of the Amsterdam Law School. And this is not just a passive statement in a policy document; I also feel this is within the faculty. I find that brave and inspiring.'