Why is trust such an important topic?

‘Law is able to order society, but it always works in a context. Culture, history, but also trust affect the way that law works. It matters if we trust each other and the institutions imposing the rules. In my appointment, I look at the way how technology regulation works in this context. I am also interested in trust, so I am curious how trust and technology and regulation are related. Technology allows us to do many things that our parents warned us against: talking to strangers, stepping into their car or house. But now the apps allow us to do exactly that when we order an Uber, book a room on AirBnB, or just use social media. When we shop online, we trust a stranger to send us a product after we send them money. We even allow people into our hearts and bodies whom we have met through a dating app. How we trust as individuals, and how we trust as societies are being transformed by the fact that we use digital technologies in so many aspects of our lives.’

Are we foolish to put this kind of trust in technology?

'We are only foolish if we misplace our trust and trust the untrustworthy, or distrust who has proven their trustworthiness. The problem with our digital technologies is that we know very little about their trustworthiness, and what little we know should not give us much confidence that they are competent, act in our best interests, and that our values are aligned. Yet, many of us rely on them, even trust them, or at least act as if they were trustworthy. I think that is foolish.' 

'Technologies try to build environments for us in which we can trust each other. But this technologically produced trust works differently than what we are used to. If you buy coffee around the corner from your office, you build trust with the barista because you see each other every day, slowly start to chat, and learn each other’s names. That doesn't necessarily work the same on a bigger scale with these technology platforms. My starting assumption is that regulation, and public oversight can help a lot to make our digital trust infrastructures more trustworthy. Even if companies breach your trust, there are routes in place to correct the course. Putting trust in technology is a little bit less foolish if the checks and balances are in place.’

Are tech companies regulated well enough?

'Different industries experience different forms of regulation, also depending on the country and the policy. I argue that how we produce and maintain trust in our societies is something we should take very seriously. In some sense we already do: we regulate some sectors quite strictly. Lawyers will say: "You can trust me because I know how to read a contract". Banks will say: "You can transfer your money to me because I will make sure it ends up in the right place. But traditional trust-intensive sectors like banking and legal services also operate under sophisticated regulatory regimes to make sure that we can rely on them with confidence. Similar regulatory frameworks only now start to emerge for tech platforms. The EU has only recently started to hold platforms more accountable. We are still mapping out the negative effects AI can have. We are continuously learning about the risks, uncertainties, and harms platforms can generate both on the individual and on the societal level. So we are in the continuous process of developing the safeguards that can make them more trustworthy.’

Is the regulator up for the job?

'Even this question is about trust. A regulated platform is more trustworthy if the regulator is trusted. So, the answer depends on where you look. For example, many Greeks might not trust the EU as a regulator, as they lost trust in EU institutions during the financial crisis. Some countries, such as those in northern Europe generally have higher levels of trust, while others, especially in Eastern Europe, lower. Trust in the government, in courts, or companies can also shift radically, driven by elections, or scandals. Take, for example, Tesla. People used to trust Tesla, and they saw Elon Musk as a visionary leader. Some people started to distrust him and his companies when he sided with Trump, and started to run amok in the US government. It led to the Tesla stocks going down, cars being burnt, sales dropping through the floor. Once you touch one point in the spider web of trust, everything starts to shake.’

Have we become more or less trusting over the years?

'Most people would say that there is a societal crisis of trust. Surveys point out that we have less trust in scientists, the news, and the government. I would argue that these fluctuations of trust in itself are not necessarily bad. It's good to keep your eyes open. You don't have to blindly trust. Where I see the crisis is more in the systematic breakdown of how we manage distrust. We trust the state because we trust the ministers and the prime minister. But we know there is a risk in blindly trusting them, so we organize regular elections. We need to be able to trust the elections, so there are all kinds of procedures to ensure its transparency. And so on. Everything is trustworthy, not because we blindly trust, but because we make sure everything is checked. But that doesn't always work out. This was apparent in the Dutch social benefit scandal. Many people still blame the discriminatory algorithm. However, the problem is that institutional checks and balances failed. Those who were tasked to be the fail safes, failed to stop the shitty algorithm. This is why a badly designed algorithm led to the collapse of a whole government.'

How do we then rebuild trust?

Since we rarely have first-hand knowledge of the trustworthiness of others, trust is often speculative. You are more inclined to trust someone if other people trust them as well. I do think regulation is a key component in building trust. Societal trust can break down if trust in the government, and the public institutions gets questioned. People may then turn for trust to their ethnic, ideological, religious peers. We see some traces of this in the US: society polarizes, breaks down into these trust-tribes. As a gun owner, you may for example be likely to trust other gun owners. So I see the state, and its institutions as bridges between different social tribes. Feyenoord and Ajax fans may fight each other all year, but when the Dutch national team plays, they all cheer for the same team.’

What are you hoping to accomplish as a professor?

'I arrived at the Netherlands 13 years ago from Hungary. The Netherlands, Amsterdam, and the UvA nurtured me, helped me, and trusted me. I want to give back and give forward that trust. Both here, in my chosen home, and back in Hungary. I want to contribute to educating future lawyers and help them understand their role, broader position, responsibilities and impact in society. Especially in that role, whatever you do impacts people's lives in ways we are just now starting to understand.'