How did you end up at the Amsterdam Law Clinics?

'I also studied law at the UvA, with a focus on human rights. After that I started working as a lawyer in labor and family law. But I've always remained involved in civil society organizations dealing with women's and children's rights. In the Amsterdam Law Clinics, everything comes together: the link with the legal practice of law, the social issues and guiding students, as I already did in my own practice. The students work on real cases in the clinics on behalf of civil society organizations, such as NGOs.’

What do you want to achieve as director of Amsterdam Law Clinics?

‘There is already a great programme in place. I am proud of the programme as it is. What I am going to do is fine-tune the clincis even better and promote the programme as much as possible. It is important that the clinics get more name recognition within the Dutch legal profession. When students have an Amsterdam Law Clinic on their resume, most employers do not immediately think: this is a student with all kinds of useful skills and a professional attitude.'

How do you change that?

'It's tricky, because practice and the university are often different bubbles. But we are setting up a help desk for social lawyers, for example. That can serve as a kind of legal store for lawyers, where students research legal issues under supervision. The results can actually be used by lawyers in their cases. These must be cases that transcend individual interests. In addition, social organizations can also easily approach us to make use of our work through our website. The threshold must be low.’

Are the clinics themselves also changing?

'The programme is already very complete. But we do want to make it more accessible to all students. We sometimes hear that students are afraid to apply because they don't have the right grades. It's a shame that those students don’t even apply, because grades don't tell the whole story. For example, you could be a caregiver or have to combine your studies with several side jobs. We are sensitive to obstacles that can lead to a student not getting high grades. The fact that such a student is eager to participate and has the right motivations says more than enough to me. I firmly believe that abandoning grades as a hard admission requirement will not detract from the quality of the program. We look at people's potential. The clinics are also an opportunity to grow.'

In what ways do students grow by participating?

'It's a way of hands-on learning that makes the transition to working life easier for students. Research shows that students who participate in the clinics feel mentally stronger. When you've just graduated, you often have no idea how things are done in the workplace. During the clinics, you learn what professionalism looks like, how to work together constructively and how to hold each other accountable when things don't go well. With that experience under your belt, you're also more likely to recognize a toxic work environment and have the confidence to guard your own boundaries.'